these organizations are telling you that they’re building something that could kill you and something that could remove all our freedom and liberty and they’re saying it’s a good thing you should back them cuz it’s cool they don’t care about the revenue they have the political power people are scared of them power should not be invested in any one individual if I can accelerate this over the next period I don’t have to make an impact I should not have any power whereas again you see everyone else trying to get more and power the only way that you can beat it to create the standard that represents humanity is decentralized intelligence it’s collective intelligence the data sets and Norms from that will be ones that help children that help people suffering that reflect our moral upstanding and the best of us and gathers the best of us to do [Music] it a week ago EOD stock was on my stage at abundance 360 talking about the
[00:01:00] future of open- source ai democratized decentralized ai the day after a360 he stepped down as CEO of stability now 5 days later I’ve sat down with iMat to talk about why he’s stepping down what he’s doing next the future of AI he takes the gloves off he talks about the dangers of centralized Ai and the potential for decentralized democratized AI to be the only Avenue that truly uplifts all of humanity all right uh if you like this episode please subscribe let’s jump in if you’re a mood shot entrepreneur this is an episode you’re not going to want to miss all right now on to emod good morning emod good to see you my friend that’s as always pizza so you and I were on stage literally last week at the 2024 abundance Summit talking about uh the whole open- Source AI movement you were beginning to talk about decentralized AI you talking about
[00:02:00] where stability was the speed of the development of the different uh products and the day after the abundance Summit was over uh the news hit that you had stepped down as CEO of stability and stepped off the board um so let’s begin with the obvious question uh why what happened um and I I have huge respect for you and I know a lot of the issues in the past but I’d like you to have a chance to share with entrepreneurs out there and folks interested in AI exactly your side of what’s Happening yeah thanks I think that uh Elon Musk once characterize being a CEO as uh staring into the abyss and chewing glass uh because you are looking at a very uncertain future having to make decisions and the chewing glass is all the problems that come to you all the time and it’s required to steer the ship when things are incredibly be uncertain
[00:03:01] and stability it’s a pretty unique company at a unique time like we hired our first developer and researcher two years ago and then in those two years we built the best models of almost every type except for large language image audio 3D Etc and had over 300 million downloads of the various models we created and supported which was a bit crazy and then generative AI is crazy in terms of usually in a startup you don’t have to deal with global leaders and policy debates about the future of humanity and AGI and everything else at the same time with building code yeah at the same time as building code yes and um especially be building code a take fraction of the resources of our competitors um like we had uh certain teams who offered triple their entire packages to move to other companies I was grateful that only a couple of researchers before
[00:04:00] N I was going to leave left for other companies and that was just startups no one left for another big company which I think is Testament to their kind of loyalty in the mission but you know what we’ve seen over the last year is or last half year in particular is the question of governance in AI is something that’s incredibly important and who manages owns controls this technology and how is it distributed so we saw you know everything from kind of open AI to Congressional testimonies to other things and as you know one of my things has always been how do we get this technology in the hands of people all around the world and then who governs it and how can we then take this technology to have an impact from education to healthare to others so stability is a company that build great base models and we we got to that point the revenue is going up which is always nice you know finding the business model and again I think it was always curious to see that as a deep tech company two years in people were asking us you know why
[00:05:01] aren’t you profitable and I was like it takes a bit of time and investment to get to profitability um I think open AI I mean they took they’re not there yet but then they have eight years I think all the comparisons are perhaps unfair so reviewing everything and kind of looking at it I was like do I really want to be a CEO I think the answer is no I think there is a lot imbued in that in Tech but it’s a very interesting position just to dive into that a second um because we’ve had this conversation uh because it was there was a lot of pressure asking whether for you to step down as CEO um and I think Founders typically want to see themselves or or feel they need to be the CEO and I I’ve heard you say recently you know that you view yourself more as a founder and strategist than the CEO is that a fair assessment yeah I think everyone’s got their own skill sets right so I’m particular particularly great at taking
[00:06:00] creatives uh developers researchers others and achieving their full potential and designing systems but I should not be dealing with you know HR and operations and business developments and other elements they’re far people better people than me to do that so now for example our most popular thing stable diffusion and comi the system around it is the most widely used image software models in the world there are great media CEOs that can take that and amplify that to make hundreds of millions of Revenue so they should come in and meet on that so why now pal what is there anything that specifically tipped for you that has I mean because you know it has you know you have done an extraordinary job this has been your baby I mean how you have to feel a a whole slew of emotional elements and and I’ve had to step down as CEO uh on two occasions over the 27 company
[00:07:00] I’ve had to sell a company for pennies on the dollar and it takes an emotional um hardship on you yeah I’ve um had calls for me to step down as CEO since the well since 2022 you know uh but I always thought you know what’s best for the company in the mission and where I look at the world right now there’s a few things he the company has momentum it has spread it’s turning into a business like last year I said let’s not enter into large Revenue contracts because technology isn’t mature yet and our processes aren’t mature yet and you have to deliver so we did a lot of experimental things we’re setting up and again now it’s ramping on a business side on a technology side the technology is maturing diffusion Transformers such as stable diffusion 3 and Sora are going to be the next big thing and again stability has got a great place there but I think there’s also the macro on this so if you look at the open AI um CEO G thing you know Sam mman said the board can find me any time this is the
[00:08:00] governance of open Ai and then they fired him and then he is back on and he appoints himself back on the board there’s clearly no governance open I mean I respect the people on the board greatly you I think there’s some great individuals but who should manage the technology that drives humanity and teaches every child and manages our government who’s really leading on that that can build these models and do those things as you know I’ve always wanted to build the science models and the the health Team done that I want been doing the education work and then my concept of a national model for every country owned by the people of the country all tied together I think it needs to be by a web 3 not crypto or necessary token framework that’s something that’s a brand new kind of Challenge and one that I think there’s only a window of a year or two to do if you have highly capable models let’s put aside AI for now which you can discuss later really accelerating then no one will be able to to keep up with that unless you build in
[00:09:01] a decentralized manner and distributed manner for data talents distribution standards and more so there’s only a small window of time here to do that and realistically again successful companies and these things are all great but geni is a bit bigger than the classical knobs just like the whole life cycle of the company was a lot faster than the classical knobs so that’s why I felt you know now is the right time to make that change and hopefully play my part in making sure this technology is distributed as widely as possible and governed properly as pretty much I think I’m the only real independent agent that has built state-of-the-art models in the world right now yeah we’ve seen a lot of turbulence with open AI we just saw Mustafa um from inflection become part of Microsoft um and I am curious I mean you you had a a now famous conversation with s
[00:10:00] uh a couple of days after stepping down um was that investigatory on your part or was that just a touch base with an old friend oh that’s just ch trolling actually you know like to let us some steam that picture was I think from year or two year or so ago okay but you know um I think Sati is an amazing CEO and uh you know you respond get like the top CEOs incredibly quickly when you message um and he’s got a great vision but there is again this concern about consolidation in Tech we didn’t take money from any trillion dollar companies at stability you know we remained and retained full Independence you know um and you know detriment of some of the elements there we could have taken very big checks and other things um and even though you have good intentions have to remember that companies are like slow Dumb AIS that over optimize for various things that’s not certainly in the best interest of
[00:11:00] humanity when you have infrastructure it’s like this is the airports the railways the roads of the future AI is an infrastructure G is an infrastructure but it should be and should it be Consolidated under the control of a few private companies with unclear objective functions again the people in the companies may be great I don’t think so and this is a key concern and part of that was that commentary again he’s doing an amazing job he’s consolidating a lot of power the good of the company and also he has a I think genuinely good hearted mission to bring technology to the world but it is a bit concerning right especially with the new types of structure you’re speaking of Sam in this case Satia here oh SAA like like again I think uh the commentary was always interesting like you know Satia playing 4D chess you know assembling the AI Avengers yeah I mean he is he’s building an amazing massive Talent covering the basis and Microsoft is doing incredibly well here right if you asked who’s doing best intive ERA people would say
[00:12:01] Microsoft um but there is has to be concerns about consolidation of talent and power and reach before I get to your vision going forward because it’s so important and what you’re doing next um I just again as a Founder as a CEO of a moonshot company we have a lot of those listening here can I ask how are you feeling right now because the decision to step down has to have huge emotional are you feeling relief are you feeling anxiety um what’s what’s the feeling after making that momentous decision uh it was a big feeling of relief um you know because there’s the there’s that Japanese concept of iyy I I know iy and I love it yes yeah do what you good at do what you like and do what you believe you’re adding value and other people do too you know like realistically again I
[00:13:01] think I was an excellent research leader strategist other things but I didn’t communicate properly or hire the right other leaders in certain other areas of the company and they’re better people to do that and so I wasn’t doing what I was best at a lot or I could have the most measurable value and it was tying down you know there’s a lot of Legacy you know technical organizational other debt especially when you grow so so so fast and you know we were lucky that we had high retention in the important areas and we could execute in spite of all of that in spite of going the big company rout I think you know moonot Founders you have to do it because you don’t have the resources at the start and you have to guide the ship you know as it goes out from Port but there does come that transition point there and there is a competing thing where you typically take on VC money which has its own objective function versus your overall mission so again if you look at the generative world right now how many credible intelligent independent voices are there there they’ve had the ability
[00:14:01] to build models and design things and make an impact you know there’s not many so I was like that’s where I can add my most leverage and also the design space is again is unprecedentedly huge because the entire Market has just been created like where does geny not fit and where does it not touch and what needs to be built there we need to actually have the agency to go and build that and so I felt tired relieved um I felt that now there’s a million options I want it rather than taking a long break get on with things I’ve just done the first thing in kind of web 3 and I’ve got a whole bunch of other things we’re going to discuss kind of coming and catalyze stuff that can make an exponential benefit because you know like massively transformed to purpose here is I want every kid to achieve their potential and give them the tools to do that and and I love you for that um because you’ve been true to that that vision and I know on the heels of your your announcement
[00:15:00] you’ve been reached out to by national leaders by corporate you know by CEOs and major investment groups and um you have a lot of opportunity ahead of you so let’s talk about where you want to go next um you mentioned publicly and you discussed on our abundant stage the idea of of uh democratized and decentralized AI um let’s define that first what is that why is it important and what do you want to do there yeah I think that when I said I’m going to move to do my part in decentralizing a people like isn’t that just open source you give the technology right and then anyone can use it but it isn’t a decentralizing AI has a few important components one is availability and accessibility everyone should be able to access this technology the foods the labor and there’s some very interesting political and other elements around that number two is the governance of this technology do you have centralized governance because the
[00:16:01] models are the data there’s a recent data bricks thing model where they show that you have massive improvements from data we all know that you know who governs the data that teaches your child or manages your health or runs your government that’s an important question I think too few are asking and we need dat transparency and other things like that um so accessibility you know you’ve got the um governance aspect of that and then finally you have how does it all come together is it a single package or is it a modularized infrastructure that people can build on and is available kind of everywhere you know does it require monoliths and Central service where if it goes down and you have an outage on gp4 you’re a bit messed up or someone can attack and corrupt it I think that those are kind of the key elements that I was looking at when I was talking about decentralizing Ai and you know I’ve come with an infrastructure to do that I hope um as well so if you don’t mind let’s double click on it even further so um
[00:17:03] you mentioned we don’t have long to get there if that’s a true statement why don’t we have long to get there and then what does getting there look like if you had all the capital available and If the right national leaders were hearing about this because a lot of this is supporting um supporting the populace of a Nation um to have ai that serves them versus uh top down what’s it look like 2 five 10 years from now yeah I think you’ll have both proprietary and open source Ai and they’ll work in combination the Practical example I give is that say I is like graduates right very talented slightly over enthusiastic graduates you got those and Consultants um but I really you know on stage with mat Freedman last week at a360 when we’re there he said it’s like we discovered this New Concept what do
[00:18:00] you call it AI Atlantis Atlantis yes yes with 100 billion graduates that will work for free yes I love that analogy it was it was a brilliant analogy yeah we need to figure out how to say Atlantis you know um but but there’s a few things here first as the defaults you know once a government Embraces centralized technology it’s very difficult to decentralize it and every country needs an AI strategy a year ago one year ago was GPT 4 yeah crazy how crazy is that you know at the AI safety Summit uh in the UK the king of England came on stage or came via video call and he said that this is the biggest thing since fire you know and that was like what six seven months later where are we going to be in year yeah I think he took that from from uh uh from uh uh the found the CEO of Google um AI is as powerful as as fire and electricity yeah yeah yeah I’ve
[00:19:01] heard the same from like Jeff Bezos and a bunch of others you know uh not Kindle Fire proper fire you know um but then if you think about it Norms are going to be set in this next period like you know I’m in California La at the moment if you don’t set Norms on rights for actors and the movie industry then you could have a massive disruption just occurring as full length Hollywood features come in a year or two generated you know if you don’t have Norms around open models and earn ship and governance by the people it’ll be toped down governments because governments can’t allow that to be out of control if they don’t have a reasonable alternative um and I think the window is only a year or two because every government must have a strategy by the end of the year and so I think if you provide them a good solution that has this element of democratic governance and others that will be immensely beneficial I think also it’s urgent because we have the ability to make a huge difference you know as we kind of May probably discuss later having all the knowledge of cancer longevity autism
[00:20:01] at your fingertips we have the technology for that right now we have the technology that no one ever is ever alone again on those things or to give every child a superior education literally in a couple of years like there is an urgency both from there’s a small window but also from we must do this now because it can scale and make that impact we have dreamed of for so long the enabling technology is finally you it’s finally good enough fast enough and cheap enough everybody I want to take a short break from our episode to talk about a company that’s very important to me and could actually save your life or the life of someone that you love company is called Fountain life and it’s a company I started years ago with Tony Robbins and a group of very talented Physicians you know most of us don’t actually know what’s going on inside our body we’re all optimists until that day when you have a pain in your side you go to the physician or the emergency room and they say listen I’m sorry to tell you this but you have this stage three or four going on and and you know it didn’t start that morning it
[00:21:01] probably was a problem that’s been going on for some time but because we never look we don’t find out so what we built at Fountain life was the world’s most advanced diagnostic Centers we have four across the us today and we’re building 20 around the world these centers give you a full body MRI a brain a brain vasculature an AI enabled coronary CT looking for soft plaque dexa scan a Grail blood cancer test a full executive blood workup it’s the most advanced workup you’ll ever receive 150 gbes of data that then go to our AIS and our physicians to find any disease at the very beginning when it’s solvable you’re going to find out eventually might as well find out when you can take action Fountain life also has an entire side of the Therapeutics we look around the world for the most Advanced Therapeutics that can add 10 20 healthy years to your life and we provide them to you at our
[00:22:00] centers so if this is of interest to you please go and check it out go to Fountain life.com Peter when Tony and I wrote Our New York Times bestseller life force we had 30,000 people reached out to us for fountainlife memberships if you go to Fountain life.com back/ Peter we’ll put you to the top of the list really it’s something that is um for me one of the most important things I off offer my entire family the CEOs of my companies my friends it’s a chance to really add decades onto our healthy lifespans go to fountainlife decomp it’s one of the most important things I can offer to you as one of my listeners all right let’s go back to our episode so the let’s talk about the objective function of democratized and decentralized AI um is it that the compute is resident um in countries around the world is it that the models are owned by the citizens of the world
[00:23:02] is it that data is owned um and how do you get there from here I think that um you can think of the supercomputers like universities you don’t need many universities honestly if someone’s building good quality models that’s one of the things is like Serv ability and we did the hard task we could have just stuck with image we said no we’re going to have the best 3D image audio biomedical all these models and no one else managed that apart from AI to degree in fact I think we have more modalities than open AI again kind of want I kind of describe this is accessibility and governance and a few of these other factors so I think what it means is that this technology is available to everyone but you see now that you don’t necess need giant supercomputers to even run it you know we show showed you a language model running on a laptop stable M2 will run on a gigabyte on a ma mare faster than you can read you know we’re writing some poems various things you know um we see
[00:24:01] stable diffusion now at 300 images a second on a consumer graphics card our video model was like 5 gabt of vram this really changes the equation because in web 2 all the intelligence was centralized on these giant servers and big data now you have big supercomputers I think you’ll need less with better data training these graduates that can go out and customized to each country but they must reflect the culture of that country like the Japanese stable diffusion model we had if you typed in salary man it gave you a very sad person versus the base model giving you a very happy person right so you must have graduates that reflect the local culture and then reflect the local knowledge and then Global models again that reflect our Global Knowledge and can be accessed by anyone but who decides what goes in there these are some very important questions and who vouches for the quality as well what’s your advice to a national leader because you know we’re
[00:25:00] now starting to see Ministers of AI in different nation states and what what’s your advice to them right now in this area I think my advice to them would be to start collecting the data sets that they would teach a graduate that was very smart through school and kind of other things this is National broadcast data this is the curriculum this their accounting legal and others and note that those data sets are infrastructure they will enable the local populace and others to create these models because models are just data wrapped in algorithms with a bit of compute that’s the recipe compute algorithms and data and it’s not going to be as hard as you think to train these models but you have to build them to good standards so by the end of next year probably year after I would estimate that a llama 70b model or stable diffusion model so these are two leading models in image and language will cost about under $10,000 probably
[00:26:01] even $1,000 to train and then it comes all about the data and then it becomes standards you know it’s it’s it’s interesting um there is so much knowledge in the world that will vaporize sublimate over the decade ahead as people die you know uh cultural data locked up in people’s minds and stories and so forth that’s never been recorded it’s an interesting time to actually capture that data and permanently store it into uh the national models yeah and again I think people over focus on the models versus the data sets I mean is data set yeah yeah yeah with the exponential compute you can recalibrate and improve the data as well so right now a lot of the improvements and models are actually synthetically improving data and data quality um as you said there’s so much that can be lost but now we can actually capture this and the concepts and the other guidance and have cross checks like you
[00:27:02] can deconstruct laws you know you can translate between contexts you can make expert information available to everyone because again you have this new continent of AI Atlantis and all these graduates soon to be Specialists that are on your phone and that’s incredibly democratizing you know um because otherwise the knowledge is throughout history knowledge has always been gatee kept always I want to get to uh health and education next but before we go there I know you were meeting with uh a mutual friend uh Jules herbach the other day um and uh and stability announced a deal with otoy Endeavor and render Network um are you still an adviser to that Venture yeah no this is part of the whole thing it’s the first of many web 3 kind of elements there I think web 3 is 95% % let’s say 90% I’ll be
[00:28:00] generous um speculative and rubbish but there is that 51% of genuine people that have been thinking about questions of governance coordination and others and have built things that are proper so ottoy is the bridge to the creative industry that’s why with Ari Emanuel and Eric Schmidt and others are on the board um and the render network is a million gpus largely from creative professionals that are available and so the first uh thing I announced there was the initial 10 million gaps 250 million of distributed comput to create the best 3D data sets like stability we funded and worked with Allan institution and others on object verse Excel which was 10 million high quality 3D assets we’re going to a billion distributed you don’t need GI supercomputers but then that is a community good that is owned by the people of the network and accessible to non academic and others as well why because you need high quality assets to
[00:29:00] create better 3D models we have a new 3D model tripol that can generate a 3D image from a 2D image in 0.5 seconds and that 3D model feeds into better 3D assets and then what does that mean it means we’re heading towards the hollow deck without the data you’re not going to get there and Jules Jules wants the hollow deck for sure yeah so you know Jules and I are on the same page lot you know and you’re not going to get there without again a Commons of data that can train the graduates that then becomes specialized with Star Trek or you know Star Wars or any of these other IPS and then also setting standards around monetization IP rights all sorts of other things um and so a network like render is really good for that but you know I’ve been talking to a lot of people in web 3 about the different elements of the stack uh because what I basically see is that we have the opportunity to build almost a human operating system uh models and data sets for every nation every set sector coordinated through proper web 3
[00:30:01] principles again not speculative tokens or anything like that you know making it so that every child in the world or adult can create anything they can imagine they can be protected against the harms and they have access to the right information at the right time to thrive and again that’s infrastructure for everyone it’s a common good access to gpus has been sort of The Limited fuel um do you think decentral Iz GPU structures like render is part of that future is an important part of that future I think so right now it’s far more efficient to train models on these again big supercomputers the university but the rate of exponential growth there again is insane last year to train llama 2 cost $10 million in a year it will $10,000 it’s a, times improvement from algorithms data super compute speeds and that’s great if you think about it right um so I don’t think this
[00:31:00] will be the limiting factor I think the GPU overhang for language models probably lasts until the end of the year but then there plentiful Supply because what you have is NVIDIA makes amazing gpus at an 83 or 87% margin right but the actual calculations aren’t complicated like we took Intel gpus and we ran the stable diffusion 3 diffusion Transformer training so this is the same technology that’s used in Sora and stable diffusion 3 is multimodal so it can train Sora model with enough compute and I think them were the only people kind of doing this I think M pixart as well um and then it ran faster on the Intel gpus than the Nvidia gpus but we know that it can run even faster because it’s not optimized for either it’s still running fast so what you’ll see is a commonization of the hardware once the architectures get stabilized because gp4 is just a research artifact St diffusion was just a research artifact you’re not engineering phase yet and you’ve got to
[00:32:00] the point whereby this runs on MacBooks it runs on other things so I think it’s a short-term phenomenum of the next year because people were taking a point in time and extrapolating it without taking into account efficiencies optimizations and the fact that models that work on the edge and can go to your private data will be more impactful than generalized intelligence everyone’s over indexing on generalized intelligence and building AI God versus Amplified human intelligence shall we say before we leave stability it’s now in the hands of uh of the chair and your uh past CTO what’s what do you imagine the future of stability is going to be going forward I know that you’re not involved anymore it’s under different leadership and there’s a what’s your advice to them or where do you think they’re going to go you know I can get the very basic advice I didn’t want any conflicts or anything because I’ll be setting up lots of new companies and you
[00:33:01] know being a founder and a shareholder and against ability I’m a Founder shareholder in fact you’re still the majority shareholder I think as of right now yeah just about just about yeah that will change I’m sure new money will come in like we saw Co here yesterday on I think 10 or 20 million of Revenue run rate they’re raising at five billion money’s plent ining yes yeah with the right leadership I think that um it can again have an amazing part to play in media and that’s what I’ve suggested to it um and again there’s a great team that continues to ship great models so last week there was an amazing code model next week amazing language audio and other models are coming out so you know you continue shipping and great products around that too um so that was kind of my advice to them let’s focus on media and take that forward but you know I’m not the expert on the business side of things I did the best I could my expertise on setting this up and taking it not to 10 and uh yeah Z 0 to one is is
[00:34:01] definitely um a role that that you’ve played here and allow it allow someone else to take it the rest of the way uh but the area that I know if I actually there’s something I wanted to kind of discuss here I think is quite important for again the founders listing and the mun shock companies um there is an imbalance of power when you have very visionary highly competent leaders there like what I found at stability is that everyone would be waiting for me no matter how competent because I was the one that could see around the corners and I was a bit good at everything even if I hired people that had built billion dollar startups or were leaders and research at Google or kind of whatever um because you have the outsize things what kind B says you have to speak last in some cases and some people they’re meeting because otherwise everyone just does everything you say and they also wait on you now what I find and what I told the team is that you’re flat as a power
[00:35:01] Dynamic you’re all on the same page you’re all kind of relatively equal owners and it’ll be interesting to see how it evolves from that uh given that there’s actually a business and again I think this is something that you probably had a challenge with than other Founders here whereby they put more on your plate because you are so Visionary and because you’re like up there in the future and they’re always waiting on you so you’re always like well my schedule’s completely packed my schedule now is actually quite free which is also quite LS I’ve had a chance to speak with you every day for the last few days so that’s been a pleasure to have extra time on your schedule you know so so we we do have a world of uh Visionary founder-led CEO companies right so you’ve got musk and you’ve got Bezos historically and you had Steve Jobs and you and and that’s both powerful and dangerous the the power is the ability for that because we don’t ever have a company that is pre-existing a new CEO comes in and has the same um uh both
[00:36:02] hutzpah and and also the power of their of their Vision um the danger there you’re concern you’re saying is not not allowing your team to step up with their own Vision or being over overly indexed on your on your vision yeah I think that that can be the issue and that’s why I wanted stability to again reach the point of spread and revenue rate increase and other things before I did anything um and I felt again this external pressure in that if nobody or there’s very few people in the world actually thinking properly about governance and spread and others and a very small window giving the pace of this to make a difference in the dent I believed I had a reasonable approach to that but I couldn’t while remaining CEO of this company and again it’s a pretty unique scenario because you’ve never seen a sector move this fast that has such wide reaching human implications and regrettably there’s too few people I
[00:37:02] think with the right alignment and approach in this area I’ve been very disappointed like usually what happens is you have power maximization equations and this is what we’re seeing from the industry consolidation how many people want to genuinely bring this technology to kids in Nigeria or to the global south or to help those leaders build their own models you know and believe also in a positive SU game that was actually my biggest surprise from the discussion of Silicon Valley almost entirely they all believe in uh flat or negative sum you know zero sum or negative sum things where there has to be a winner everyone’s a winner this and again I was just very disappointed seeing that I’ve been asking you for a while to write and distribute your vision white paper cuz I’ve heard you describe it in detail and it’s brilliant and I still hope that the world will see it soon enough everybody I want to take a break from our episode
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[00:39:00] your goals and needs ranging from improving your gut health your oral health cellular function or all of them I’ve been using viome for the past 3 years I can tell you that it has made a huge difference in my health and because of the data they collect and the AI engine they’ve built it gets better every single day I love getting Health scores and seeing how my diet and lifestyle affects my microbiome and my cells and I love getting precision supplements and probiotics tailored for my specific needs if you want to join me on this journey of Discovery and improve your health From the Inside Out viome has a special offer for you for a limited time you can get up to 40% off any viome test using the code moonshots just go to vom.com back/ moonshots and order your test today trust me you won’t regret it all right let’s go back to our episode before we jump into into health and education let’s talk about governance a second because we’ve seen
[00:40:01] um complicate this what is the right governance structure for the super powerful technology we have represent of democracy that I think can be improved by this like I don’t think democracy survives this technology and it’s current for it will either improve or it will end I don’t see anything else like um yesterday they what does end what does end mean here a a benign dictatorship a driven by an AI Overlord yeah like yesterday there were was a announcement of an app called Hume which had emotionally intelligent speech and it can understand your emotions and talk with emotion you and I have to discuss this yes you know where that’s going right power speech it’s incredibly powerful and governments have a tendency I mean if Government but but say it say it here it’s important for you to State what what it means because we’ve discussed it but hope people here under be ready for this democracy is all about representation and you see the questions of deep fakes and things speech is one
[00:41:01] of the most impactful elements there but now you can’t believe anything you see here everything so One path that we have is a 1984 on steroids panoptical you know where life is gamified and you listen to whatever the government says and they’re incredibly convincing and you’re happy and you’ve always been happy and you’ve always been at war with Eurasia you know propaganda on steroids the other part that you have is things like citizen assemblies consultative democracy the ability to take right now you can take any of the bills in Congress and completely deconstruct them and find what the motivations are you know you can check laws against the constitution in a second seconds this is incredibly powerful empowering technology from a democratic perspective so I see two routes unfortunately because I think that once the thing goes It goes really fast centralized government control increasing because the governments want to protect themselves as an organization and you
[00:42:00] know every party says the other party is crap we’ve seen the increasing polarization in America already and you know fundamentally come on you can do better than those two leaders that are currently competing I’m saying this is clearly our system is sclorotic across this like democracy is the worst of all systems except for everyone else we can have a better democracy where it’s actually representative and empowers the people or we will have the end of Y where it is a 1984 pan opine in my opinion because the momentum will go there of course you will start using this technology you’re already seeing it being used but not at scale and not intelligently yet which is scary I I I think we finally have the technology for a direct uh democracy versus a representative democracy right where I can have my my desires directly represented on any specific law or but I think the point you’ve made before is that
[00:43:01] speech um if you look back to everybody from Hitler to some of the most persuasive politicians um is is a powerful tool and AI can become the most persuasive speaker out there it can take anyone’s speech and make it far more persuasive like I think my voice is a bit whiny I can remove the wi you know I can go in a very polish British accent and other things like that right you know must fight them on the hills and the harriers and whatever public speaking makes a big difference someone took Hitler’s speeches and put them through an AI and took them into English because when we’re not in the German context and we listen to them it sounds like he’s shouting like what this crazy thing you hear him in English it is very different in his own voice just like someone took Javier’s one in the United Nations and put him into English again he sounds a bit sh shouty but then he sounds very reasonable when it’s in English and you can take the phenomes of Obama’s best
[00:44:01] speeech and a bit of trumpism and a bit of church chill and you’ll have full modulation wave control over all of this people are already using this technology that everyone should have a passcode with their loved ones because people are getting calls from their mother saying help I’m in an emergency and need to send money right now and you cannot tell it and it pulls the emotional strengths and if you look at something like us radio and you know one side of the political divide is taking that over imagine if you’re hearing optimized speech every single day that will have a huge impact and then they control the visuals and they control the other things we’re not set up for defenses yeah if it’s if it’s optimized speech for you specifically for you right for the kids you have the age group they have where you live your historical background and so forth and N of one persuasive speech coming at you um the brain is not set up for defenses we’re not and you know we take this as
[00:45:00] an example of the YouTube algorithm like YouTube as an organization is not an evil organization but it’s an organization optimized for engagement which optimized for more extreme content so there’s some dark place in YouTube which then optimize for Isis so Isis video spread viral I don’t know sometimes viral is good sometimes viral is bad that one was bad because it was extreme and they didn’t understand why and if you look at it uh who of our largest gen are companies are Google and meta and their business is advertising their business is manipulation and they are both aoral companies because why would you expect a company to have morality our governments are also amoral and again you can view these things as slow Dumb AI so you can see the way they will optimize unless we do something about it and they will have full control like again you put on your Vision Pro headset with your spatial audio that is full sensory control not
[00:46:00] full but you know what I mean level we full immersion full immersion full full immersion and so we have to be aware of this and there’s obviously other tools that can be used like in the wake of the Arab Spring you know governments targeted everyone that was in social media we can do that on again hyper personalized basis like we need to set some defaults and standards here to protect democracy but again why democracy Cy we’re not really trying to protect democracy you know again people have different definitions that what we’re trying to protect is individual liberty freedom and agency education should be about enhancing the education of every child is not you know healthc care is sickcare our government should uplift us but how many people believe our governments do that rather than put us down because they couldn’t encapsulate and cater to the Brilliance of each individual because they don’t have the tools until out so that’s why I said which way one man yes which way internet
[00:47:00] agency or massive control these are the two ways do we control the technology or do these organizations control the technology that controls us you know when we were on the stage at at the abundance Summit we talked about a future of digital superintelligence right and a future in which we’ve got AI a billion times more capable than a human which looking at it just from a ratio of neurons is the ratio of a hamster to a human um y uh do you believe that someday we could have a a benign super intelligence that is supporting Humanity yes and I believe that it should be a collective intelligence that is made up of Amplified human intelligence as amplifying all of us Pilots that contain our Collective knowledge and culture and the best of us and data sets that are
[00:48:01] built from helping and augmenting US versus a collected intelligence and AGI that is top down and designed to effectively control us again if you look at open AI statements on the root AGI they say this technology will end democracy end capitalism and maybe kill us all I don’t like that I remember I remember seeing that you you you texted me you said read this does this sound the same as it does to me yeah so what I’d prefer instead is for this to be distributed like if you have data sets from Nations that are built on enhancing the capability of the nation that reflect the local cultures and you push for data transparency on models which I believe we must have you know especially language models then you’re more likely to have a positive thing and again the human Collective can achieve anything from splitting the atom to go into space if we put our minds to it but we have lacked in coordination mechanisms they’ve not been good enough so if you create the Colossus and every single person has an AI That’s just looking out for them to enhance their
[00:49:02] potential and in coordination a that is a far more positive view of the future and that is the AGI that is a general intelligence that’s the high mind general intelligence not Bor style hive mind but one that’s really thinking again every child should achieve their potential versus this embodied concept of an AI That’s a very Western concept you see that as well like you know we look at the Japanese concept of a robot the robot is your equal and your helper you look at the Western concept of the robot it’s Terminator and Skynet and all of that and again I think this is again where cultural norms become very interesting and what do we want to build do we want to build AI God or do we want to build that AI helper that helps us and we help it you know um those listening now I mean you can see yod’s Brilliance and why I’m so enamored with the way you think about this because it’s there are very few individuals who are looking at this from uh an objective function of what’s best
[00:50:01] for Humanity what’s best for every nation state uh out there let’s talk about your going forward future um are you going to build something in the uh in the decentralized um uh side of of AI the democrac size of AI is there a company there or Fund in your future for that yes so uh you know doing the white paper finally getting with a bit of help from AI uh I I can’t I I can’t I can’t wait to uh to help uh broadcast that white paper yeah but look I think the basic thing is this what I want to do is set up a AI champion in every nation with the brightest people of each Nation working with the organizations of reach Nation to help guide them through this next period because there will be massive job displacement from the graduates going massive uplifts and productivity from the technology being implemented and again that organization can help govern and create these data sets and these models that are so important and I Every
[00:51:01] Nation should have that but then I also believe that every sector should have a generative AI first infrastructure company that builds this and helps the healthcare companies finance companies and others through that and to coordinate all of that you need to have a web3 type protocol what is the protocol for intelligence so what is a web what is a web3 type protocol Define that for folks listening again people talk about web 3 it’s not about the tokens or the mem coins or anything like that what about3 protocol is is that everyone should have like AIS first of all aren’t going to have bank accounts they’re going to need some way to pay each other or exchange value and again web3 done a lot of work in that there needs to be some sort of identity attribution and other format because you’ll have this Mass influx of information and so again web 3 concepts are very useful there there needs to be an identity concept because you’ll have real and digital people we three concepts are very useful there so data attestation all these other things
[00:52:01] verifiability so when I look at it if you’ve got sectorally my plan is to launch one Mr company for every major sector and we can talk about health and education and bring the smartest people in the world to solve that challenge of the infrastructure for the future Every Nation but you need to have some sort of coordinating protocol for all of that that becomes a standard and that’s the substrate for this Amplified human collective intelligence and and is that where you want to play play and focus your energy next yeah it’s setting up these organizations and bringing the brightest smartest people that really want to make a difference there because there’s massive Network effects in doing this but again I just need to be the founder and architect I don’t want to run the day-to-day of any of these things um and then because the the most scarce Talent there’s three types of capital as I view it there’s Financial Capital human capital and political capital and in order to affect a change in the world you actually need all three but the financial Capital actually comes with the people capital and the political
[00:53:01] capital and the smartest people in the world in every sector from Healthcare to education to finance to agriculture almost all believe that geni is the biggest thing they’ve ever seen in the last year everyone’s asking you all the smartest people Keo what’s next right and you know many of the smartest people in the world so I want to create organization that they can come the chefs and the cooks the thinkers and the doers and think what is the future Finance that’s the future of education and then the national champions that should be owned by the people of each country become the distribution for the amazing infrastructure that they built and there’s a vice a nice kind of Vice Versa but then again you need the coordination function so I’m trying to bring together people in each of these and you know there’ll be public calls and things like that to build that infrastructure the future because as mentioned AI isn’t infrastructure where it should be I maybe it’s the rocket ship of the mind right I love that I love that analogy my friend it it it is the most important infrastructure that Humanity will have
[00:54:01] going forward across everything it does and I look forward to helping you build it exciting right like again I think one of the things I got I got lots of messages they’re like I’m so sorry for your loss it was like my dog had died after I left the CEO I was like what is that you know they’re like I it’s nice it’s nice that people care right but I’m generally excited kind of about what’s next like you know again it was like staring into the abyss and chewing glass every single day and that’s not what I’m best at or where I could have the most impact but I want it to be a point whereby if I can accelerate this over the next period I don’t have to make an impact I should not have any power on this whereas again you see everyone else trying to get more and more power I want to make sure it’s set up properly but I want to give it all away because power is obligation it’s dragging and again it should not be invested in anyone individual we should have to rely on anyone being nice or good or for this
[00:55:00] technology I was talking to uh Michael sailor during the abundance Summit uh that evening and you know talking about the fact that because Satoshi uh when he set it up uh did not retain any power and did not trade on the founding blocks and so forth that that’s the reason it’s been able to succeed because there wasn’t that centralized power and you know Bitcoin had been tried he said Bitcoin had been tried many times before but because it didn’t have that uh initial anonymity and and the and the dissolution of founding power that that’s the reason it didn’t succeed yeah I mean again I think you need to have it accelerate and you see this with movements right the movement starts but then it goes once you’ve got the DNA and the story there right you know you see the prophets you see the leaders you see the others but then it’s about setting the framework correctly and reframing the concept this technology is not beond stability is a company that started two years ago
[00:56:01] above a chicken shop in London right you know my first 20 employees I went to the job center and I said bring me people that have overcome adversity and I will train them young graduates and six of them are still at stability you know um like because it was a program and they’re doing things from cyber security to running super computers we only had like 16 17 phds yet we built the state-of-the-art models in every modality we buil mind reading models like mind ey you know I remember that contributed to all these things yet you’re told it’s impossible to compete we have shown it’s not impossible to compete that’s a reframing the reframing is data versus models it’s you don’t need giant supercomputers for everyone you just need to have a trusted entity to build it right yeah you know and so I hope to kind of convey this and then figure out this organizational structure that can proliferate so I can take a holiday so before we go further let’s talk about one area of your next chapter in life that uh we both have as a
[00:57:02] passion uh which is the use of generative AI in health it’s an area that you’ve given a huge amount of thought to uh and I think uh you’re excited about can you share what your vision is there yeah so I got into AI 13 years ago gosh I was a programmer before for 23 years Building Law scale systems as a hedge fund manager and other things well my son was diagnosed with autism and then I built an NLP team to analyze all the clinical literature and then looked at biomolecular pathway analysis of neurotransmitters gabber and glutamate in the brain to repurpose drugs for him and he went to Mia school which was great and equ calls one and then I was one of I was lead architect on the one of the covid AI projects of the United Nations LA to Stanford and others and then because I didn’t get the technology I was like oh we want to build it ourselves but what is health you know again I think we had this discussion a lot Healthcare is sickcare we don’t have all the information that we should have at our fingertips Health assumes ergodicity a thousand tosses of the coin
[00:58:01] the same as a coin tossed a thousand times but we are all individual and across the world there are amazing data sets that could be better because when you write down a clinical trial or your own kind of experiences you lose so much information at the same time you don’t have all the information on cancer autism multiple sceris at your fingertips and the comprehensive authorative and update way so when I look at the health operating system we’re going to build a gp4 open for cancer and it’s going to mean that nobody is alone again on that journey and loses that agency because they know comprehensive Authority upate all the knowledge but AI models today already outperform human doctors and empathy so they’re not going to be Al Lear on that anymore yeah c can I just double click on what you just said because it’s really important I’ve have so many people because of my role as chairman of Fountain life who reach out and say I just got diagnosed with this cancer my brother my sister or my wife and and
[00:59:03] there is they’re left with this decimating use and they’re left Googling um but a model that’s able to have the most Cutting Edge information and then incorporate all their medical data and give them advice in empathic fashion how far is that see couple of years if we focus maybe even next year and that’s amazing because for all of these topics that again we will have diagnosis that is superior we will have research augmentation because again even researchers don’t have all that knowledge of their fingertips and again this is public infrastructure and a public good you know from primary care all the way through that what is the open infrastructure in the future where this technology can come again to your own data as well you have uh things like Melody and other things around homomorphic encryption Federated learning that so they were trying to figure out how to preserve privacy we can run a language model on a smartphone
[01:00:00] right now M that can analyze all your data and then just feedback stuff to a global Collective but people are people so when I look at Healthcare I see amazing data sets that we can activate by taking the models to the data an infrastructure that we can build like we had check’s agent with Stanford the top x-ray ad Radiology model to build good standard things across the entire gamma of healthcare so we actually get to healthcare vers sit so that we can make it so that everyone is empowered to make the best decisions either as experts or individuals and make it so nobody is alone again as well as increasing the data quality that will then feed better models that will then save lives save suffering and again increase our potential like you’ve got a longev long book behind you right why don’t you have all the latest knowledge of longevity at your fingertips at a gp4 level right now that will happen over the next year we will launch stable health or whatever decide to call it and there will be the smartest people in each of these areas
[01:01:00] working on that so again you never AR like doesn’t matter if you’re if you’re with hundred billion dollar and your kid has autism ASD there’s no cure there’s no treatment there’s nothing doesn’t matter how rich you are yet with just a little bit of effort right now we can build it as an open infrastructure for the 5% of people in the world that know someone with autism the 50% of people in the world that receive a cancer diagnosis of them of someone they love and they feel that loss of agency so we’re going to return agency to humanity that way and again it needs to be an open infrastructure that they can then access private data sets and compensate them appropriately so everyone is incentivized we can that fast yeah and and that’s a beautiful Vision it is again infrastructure and one of the things that’s so beautiful about it is guess what all 8 billion people were all human or all running the same software and the the the breakthroughs and the knowledge accumulated in you know in Kazakhstan is
[01:02:01] going to be as useful in Kansas yeah but this is the thing operating system this is the biggest upgrade to the human operating system we can imagine because we’re going from analog to digital text is black and white whereas this these models only understand context you know Daniel canaman just passed you know amazing kind of guy but you know he did have this concept of type one type two thinking and so we had one which is these big data things that can only extrapolate but now we have these models that understand context and so we have the missing part of the brain and that will allow us to extrapolate allow us to have more rainbows you know have the context of each individual push intelligence to the edge and that’s why again there is this imperative to do this now because there’s a window on the freedom agency democracy side but the other imperative is no one should have to suffer as they’re suffering now yeah amazing and how much does actually need doesn’t need that much which is the really amazing stuff this
[01:03:01] the total amount spent in generative I think I said at the conference is less than the total amount spent on the Los Angeles San Francisco Railway which hasn’t even started yet and and in building stable Health again if if that’s what it’s called I mean the amount of capital required to build that is di Minimus compared to what spent on a single human trial of any any drug yeah it is but then you know you build it and you get to that 8020 incredibly quickly that will change hundreds of millions of lives and that will attract the smartest people in each of these areas thinking about what is the open infrastructure of multiple sclerosis of longevity of cancer and more but then you can amp that because the value is so so huge and you I hope to build a trusted organization as part of this whole human operating system upgrade you that’s what I want to build I want to build human Os or at least catalyze it again I don’t want to run or control own anything I want to Che out how to give back that control CU who should decide
[01:04:00] what cancel knowledge goes in there who should decide what education ET let’s talk about the second half of your of your vision which is how we originally met um when you were one of the winners of the Global Learning X prize that uh Elon and Tony uh Robbins had had co-funded your your vision around education um speak to us about that yeah you know like we’re deploying it um kind of the windows are kind of separate but every child my my entire operating system is like if you think about things in terms of the rights of child today they have no agency and so we must respect their rights climate everything becomes a lot simpler now that we have language models on a laptop like I said you can go to LM studio. download stable LM and it will run on your MacBook faster than you can read it’s crazy we could have a gp4 level AI from us or someone else on a smartphone or a tablet
[01:05:00] by next year One Laptop a child was too early you know now we have this transformative technology you have an AI that teaches the child learns from a child are you visual auditory dyslexic that’s the best data in the world for a national model but also to teach these models how to be optimistic how to this this really is this really is uh the young ladies Illustrated primer this really is Neil Stevenson’s Vision in that regard yeah but n shouldn’t have had to find the primer she should have had it from day one as a human right as a human right yes our schools education system our child care mixed with the social status game mixed with petri dish you know they teach our kids not to have agency yes whereas they should be telling the kids yeah they should be teaching a relic of the Industrial age where everyone had to be counted and you can’t measure what you can’t manage so you manage the creativity and belief out
[01:06:02] of people everyone in the world can do anything why because even if you don’t have that Talent you can convince someone else who does have that talent but they don’t believe it so they can’t do it so what happens if we have an entire nation of children that have this helper that brings the right information the right time and tells them they can always believe that supports them entire world what what can’t you do you know then they have all of the cancel knowledge of their fingertips and all of the engineering knowledge of their fingertips and it’s a constantly learning adaptive and improving system again right now almost the entire AGI and AI debate is about these machine Gods train on giant supercomputers that bestow their beneficence down or may kill us or whatever what about that human operating system upgrade that is a decentralized intelligence where that kid in Mongolia or Malawi or wherever can make a difference to humanity some of the contributors to our open code bases for our models are 15 years
[01:07:01] old yeah they just taught themselves and just happen to be their Wizards you don’t know in this new age right and again they should contribute to the whole because once something goes into this model of the system and again it needs the verification and other things that can be dynamic it can proliferate to everyone using that system do you think that once this capability is built it will run into blocks in different nations uh or do you imagine that this will become a again a a human right uh and not all n i mean listen there’s no greater gift and no greater asset you can give to a nation’s populace than intelligence and education but I’m not sure every national leader wants to see that that’s why I think again there is a gap here there is a year maybe where you can go to any national leader and say I will bring this technology to your people and I will empower the smart to your people and I want it to be eared by
[01:08:00] the people and what option do they have this is positive for them what happens is that a lot of the corruption in the world is because of local Maxima you know actually it’s weird because unpredictable corruption is the worst predictable corruption is a bit like tax you know there’s a good B book by fusser J at Harvard about this and then you have taxation kicking at 14% um if you can show them something bigger and this is clearly big they will Embrace this technology set new norms and if you correct the same across all these countries with talented individuals in each of those groups and talented individuals in each of those sectors with a shared Mission even though they’re separate organizations that’s how you set amazing standards that’s how you build a network effect and if you tie them all together with a intelligent protocol and again we talk about tokens or speculation or ramps or anything like that but taking the best of thinking around coordination that can work that can break this open you know um but it’s not going to be everywhere and also when you look at the current debate
[01:09:00] the current debate is for example we can’t let China have this technology and you’re like what about the kids in China like well you know it’s dangerous they can have AGI so under what circumstance would China ever have this technology never you know Pakistan when should they have the never that’s really what they kind of saying it’s also self-defeating because China has 100 million people they can use to create data sets and two xof flop super computers that’s as side again it’s a very Western oriented debate whereas actually if you go to these countries and you talk to the leaders and the family offices that have power and the people they will lead frog in the global South to a intelligence augmentation like they let frog to mobile they want to embrace this technology and again you can set Norms Now versus what’s going to happen is you know they will get a centralized solution they’ll adopt that instead if you don’t right now for hundreds of millions billions of people that’s why I think again it’s a Crossroads um is there anybody else
[01:10:02] working towards this position that you know of no in the in the large AI yeah no certainly no in credibility and again that’s why I had to build these models you know and I had to kind of do this everyone’s working on Tiny parts of this but they’re expecting emergence build it and somehow it will spread and again this is why I found it fascinating the web 3 Community there are good people in there and I hope to be able to unite them just like hope to unite the people in health and others again Peter you’ve seen people working on Tiny parts of this but this isn’t a Manhattan Project where we’re facing an enemy unless the enemy is ourselves you know but this does require this big Global coordinated push and that’s why I’ve tried to design this system that I believe will work because it’s all about the talent and it is multiplicative is the race against uh overly powerful centralized AI systems that achieve some version of AGI is that what we’re racing
[01:11:02] against yeah again we’re racing against ourselves like um humans could scale through stories you have organizations you know come and join abundance come and go to Oxford come and do this but then when we scaled through text text was a lossy information format and there’s this poem by Ginsburg how about this carthaginian demon of disorder Moc that comes in Mallet comes in through the data loss our organizations are slow Dum AIS but now what’s happening is they’re configuring to achieve their thing of getting more and more power again corporations are technically a people under law but they’re not fully formed people they eat our hopes and dreams so I believe the competition here is against those organizations consolidating too much power and creating Norms that are almost impossible to break so we’re almost competing against ourselves and again the question is this do you believe it ified human intelligence or do you believe in artificial general intelligence do you believe in collective intelligence or do you
[01:12:00] believe in collected intelligence who decides is this infrastructure or is this a product like so it’s not like a Manhattan Project against you know the Soviets or anything like that but it this is require us all to come together or at least the smartest people in each of these areas from coordination to governance system to healthare to education with a blank slate of how do we upgrade the human operating system the time is now it’s our last chance to do it and I and I I love you for it because I think you’re you’re right you were there when Elon beamed in on XX video over starlink from his airplane which is which was a fun moment and we were talking about uh the rate of growth and his his statement um could you know Rick hzw was there talking about his still his prediction of AGI by 2029 and R and
[01:13:01] and Elon saying we’ll have AGI whatever that means by next year and and the intelligence of the entire Human Race by 2029 so I I am I am curious what just to close out what you think about that those timelines and that potential for a super intelligent uh AI system that is centralized because that’s the people who are building that level of Power are building centralized systems they’re building centralized single systems that again take our collective intelligence like all of YouTube In the case of open AI clearly and other things and they package it up sell it back to us but they don’t give they don’t care you know these organizations are trying to build a system that will take away our freedom Liberty and potentially kill us all let’s be kind of fair about that be direct and sell it to us at uh on an incremental basis the selling to us is a complete Canad they don’t care
[01:14:00] about the revenue of this again let’s kind to call a spade a spade they are telling you that they’re building something that could kill you and something that could remove all our freedom and liberty and they’re saying it’s a good thing you should back them because it’s cool it’s not it’s actually shameful if you think about it and we should not stand for it anymore this is another reason I want to step aside to see yeah because you can’t say things like that I got canceled C Valley so many times but realistically it’s ridiculous and it should not be stood for but they’re going to do it anyway because they have the political power people are scared of them so there has to be an alternative and the alternative has to be distributed intelligence when I resigned I said you can’t beat centralized intelligence with centralized intelligence you’re not going to beat it with a stability the is a great organization it’s going to do well the only way that you can beat it to create the standard that represents humanity is decentralizing intelligence it’s collective intelligence and the data sets and Norms from that will be ones
[01:15:01] that help children that help s people suffering that reflect our moral upstanding and the best of us and gathers the best of us to do it because if you work in healthcare if you work in education if you work in finance if you work in any of these things there’s no Organization for you to come and join or partner with on this there’s no kind of centralized Mission I have looked I’ve wanted to help other people I didn’t want to do this myself and I don’t want it to be about me very very quickly which is why I’m kind of getting it out there now I hope I can capitalize something that then people will take forward and time is now for that because AGI when it comes if it comes again there’s various definitions of this why on Earth do you need any knowledge workers anything that can be done via a laptop doesn’t need humans and so you have concepts of Ubi here you have concept I when AJ comes you don’t need money money is a story as a common good we H towards a post capitalist Society yeah yeah I think the
[01:16:00] example I think you said was uh Star Trek versus Mad Max you know I’m like Star Trek versus Star Wars I think is a bit of a better one you know and so you got the Sith Lords and all of that um but again if you kind of look at this I don’t think we need money like it’s cross contextual like bartering with our AI systems representing us or it’s you don’t need money because you’re told what to do again our governments the definition of a government is the entity with Monopoly on political violence and an AGI can overtake any government that can then control the people because again listen to it whispering look at the kind of human thing so we have this opportunity to accept Norms right now the way that the big labs are going to AGI is likely to kill us all Elon and I signed that six-month pause letter because even though people like emad you’re an accelerationist you put all this open source AI out you have to think about the other side and who’s involved in that discussion and again if we build an AGI as a centralized thing is Windows or
[01:17:01] Linux safer as infrastructure our entire internet infrastructure is built on open open can be challenged open can be augmented a monolith is like to be crazy and the way that I put this is you and I both know so many Geniuses you know side effect of Genius is insanity honestly we’re not ment Geniuses are not m stable why would you expect an AGI to be so and you’re putting all your ends in one basket versus creating a complex hierarchical system that is a hive mind that’s intelligence that represents us all we should be working towards building that because it’s safer it’s better it achieves all the benefits that people are talking about and it’s possible today do you think Elon shares in this vision of a centralized AI do you think he would play in that area and do you think any of the national leaders that you’ve been speaking to would support that kind of a vision as well um yeah I can’t speak very long
[01:18:00] I’ll speak to him and see what he thinks and I’ll get back to you you know he always says what he thinks um but you know he’s immensely concerned he was one of the leaders in this area saying originally why Google you know now why Microsoft open AI like it can’t be centralized but it’s difficult it’s a difficult question how many people have a feasible solution or you even thought about this properly you and I both know just not many and that’s very sad should be everyone thinking about this on the leader side all the leaders I’ve met are super happy you know because they again leaders want Power they want control and all of this but genuinely like they want to see abundance they’re not happy with where their countries are and embracing this technology they know that they can leave ahead and you know they will still have a say in all of this it’s not like it’s kicking them out or removing them there are still various kind of mechanisms there and ultimately improve the health education and capability of your people is not a bad thing I mean like obviously
[01:19:00] I haven’t talked to the completely oppressive leaders you know maybe that’ll be an interesting thing but honestly I don’t want to even be talking to leaders I want to create again a system the people of the country coming together with the franchise system can then build this technology for the good of their people in the open and not be reliant on anyone politically or any other type of thing like that because we don’t need giant super computers for where we’re going we need coordination need a few giant super the computers yeah what’s your timeline for putting out this white paper I’m working as hard as I can you know put it together I’ve held I’ve held I’ve held you to this a number of times I’ve said get the vision out there it’s it’s getting though I’m about to go off the Callo to a 4-Hour session to dictate all the various bits and pieces and again it was impossible when I was a CEO of stability there was always another fire there was always another thing I didn’t have time to think you know and I hope people can take that white paper and make it better I don’t have all the answers I’m just trying to cap something man I think after I heard you Ste down I wrote you a text saying congratulations yeah exactly not
[01:20:01] commiserations time time to time to feel Unleashed yeah um yeah uh Imad thank you my friend uh thank you for sharing uh where you are what led up to this where you’re going next and uh and really pulling the gloves off on discussing the idea of centralized um closed AI system sys and their dangers uh and the importance of of the vision that you portrayed because I’m I’m fully supportive and full believe that what you’ve laid out um is probably one of the most sane visions of AI in the future that I’ve heard I hope other people agree you know and they can take it Forward they real heroes thank you thank you pal