welcome to moonshots and mindsets I had an extraordinary conversation with Dr Rana El kbi at abundance 360 about the ethics and morals around AI so let me ask you do you say please and thank you when you talk to Alexa uh how do you think about AI does it cause you fear or excitement uh end of the day we’re giving birth to a new species and we’re going to have to talk about the ethics and morals around what we’re building R El kbi is the co-founder and CEO of affectiva uh it’s a company that developed emotional recognition software so that computers and AIS can understand how you’re feeling and from that she dove into a conversation during this uh segment of abundance 360 on morals and ethics where are they where are they going uh it’s a conversation you’d be having around every dinner table you know can AI actually help humans become
[00:01:01] more moral more ethical we’re about to find out all right join this conversation from my private Summit abundance 360 March 2023 enjoy we’re going to talk about empathy and ethics in the field of AI and we’re going to talk about how we get there uh can we get there what does it mean why it’s important if you don’t mind um let’s open up with how did you get interested in this area in the first place yeah I I I’m a computer Scientist by background which is kind of interesting because now I’m thinking what does a computer science degree mean in the first place maybe you become a philosopher by so I studied computer science I was really interested in how technology helps us connect better with each other as humans and particularly intrigued by that human machine touch point and you know over 25 years ago I got into this space and I started kind
[00:02:00] of imagining what would a incredible human machine interface look look like and now of course we’re seeing technology become conversational perceptual but I think it’s missing the empathy component and and for me I had to go back to like what comprises human intelligence and it’s not just your IQ it’s not just your cognitive intelligence but your emotional intelligence and your social intelligence really matters your ability to empathize with other humans I mean we’ve already heard the word empathy so much today um and so I believe that technology needs especially AI that is so deeply ingrained in our everyday lives and it’s becoming mainstream as we’ve heard from all our speakers so far and um it’s taking on roles that were traditionally done by humans it’s going to be your learning companion your health companion it’s going to make decisions on your behalf it’s going to be your you know help you hire your coworker um but it’s missing that empathy it’s Miss I think it’s missing
[00:03:00] that human Centric element we’re so obsessed with the IQ of this technology we’re not really paying attention to the E you think we’re going to get to a point where each of us have a personalized AI with a personality that is looking out for you and knows what your needs are makes what I call an automatical moment and is always watching out for your best yeah I’m I’m actually can I ask the audience a question pleas of course how many people here have watched the movie Her have you watched the movie was my favorite AI movie of all whose favorite movie is her yeah so so basically in her this guy Theodore is really depressed he can’t get out of bed and he installs this new operating system Samantha and not only is she super smart but she’s also incredibly empathetic and emotionally intelligent and because she knows him she gets to know him really well she’s able to actually get him out of bed and get him to ReDiscover like you know the joy in the world and he falls in love with her yeah that’s that’s the that’s the Hollywood listen
[00:04:02] if someone knows you that well well we’re going to go there eventually going to go there um I mean you know my favorite part it’s it’s the first non- dystopian AI movie out there right uh what the only thing the AI does is say by humans were going off to explore the universe which I think is a good thing for it to do um so what does it mean how do we get there are there people working on building empathic AIS how can you how can you make that happen yeah I think the way to get there so we’re not I often get asked does technology have emotions or have empathy obviously doesn’t but we can simulate empathy and we can simulate emotional intelligence it turns out that 93% of the way we communicate is not in the actual words we use it’s non-verbal yeah so this is by way a part of your research part of your work part of the company that you built can you describe that for me yeah so I started in Academia I did my PhD way back when at Cambridge University building the very
[00:05:00] first artificially emotionally intelligent machine and I focused specifically on the face because the face is a powerful way of communicating emotion and um social cues and it’s why we’re here in person today because you can’t currently replicate that human Connection in a Digital Universe um so we use supervised machine learning Andrew talked about that we use gobs and gobs and gobs of data of people expressing a variety of expressions from all over the world and we use it to train deep learning networks to understand these facial expressions and then map them to an emotional or cognitive State um so when I first started the algorithm could only detect three Expressions it could just do smile uh eyebrow raise and brow Farrow that was it and today you know it is able to do over 50 different emotional cognitive and behavioral States it can detect everything from drowsiness um alertness confusion you know excitement these are the visual algorithms that will allow an
[00:06:01] AI to know how you’re feeling if you’re pissed off if you’re ecstatic and so forth exactly um and you have some slides if you want to show us I wanted to show cuz one of the example applications of this technology is in the automotive industry yes and we when we first started doing this work the big question was like okay you’re driving your car is there even any Expressions on the face and so we went out and asked people to install cameras in their vehicles we collected all that data and I have permission to share a few videos so I wanted to share this with you um so this is one example so this video goes on actually for a good five minutes he is driving his car with his daughter um and it’s it’s an extreme state of drowsiness there’s four levels of falling asleep and this is like stage four but it’s but it’s actually very easy to detect using computer vision because his eyes are closed his head’s bobbing it’s it’s actually a very easy
[00:07:00] problem to solve and once we solve it and imagine if you have a semi-autonomous vehicle the car can intervene you know I’m super passionate about longevity and health span and how do you add 10 20 healthy years onto your life one of the most under appreciated elements is the quality of your sleep and there’s something that changed the quality of my sleep and this episode is brought to you by that product it’s called Eight sleep if you’re like me you probably didn’t know that temperature plays a crucial role in the quality of your sleep those mornings when you wake up feeling like you barely slept yeah temperature is often the culprit traditional mattresses trap heat but your body needs to cool down during sleep and stay cool through the evening and then heat up in the morning enter the Pod cover by eight sleep it’s the perfect solution to the problem it fits on any bed adjust the temperature on each side of the bed based upon your individual needs you know I’ve been using pot cover and it’s a game Cher I’m
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[00:09:01] think is just extremely scary so this woman is driving she has a phone in her hand both hands distracted two phones in her hands thank you yes exactly you do not want to be driving that and and mind you we told her we I mean she installed this camera in her car she’s showing off I think but so how does a car then again very easy to detect how should a car respond should it just Take Over Control and basically say you know you’re not driving anymore you’re tooo dangerous or or should it give her you know alerts should it yeah there’s there’s multiple ways a car can respond but incorporating that empathy is going to be so important because you don’t want people to just turn the system off yeah yeah uh so one of the questions uh about how we relate to AI so we’re teaching this large language model so the large language models we’ve been hearing about open Ai and stability and so forth are taught on all the data out there what is that data that data represents us humans it
[00:10:01] represents how we talk to each other how we think about things it’s not made up it’s us right and uh there’s a great book by uh a friend of both of ours and mo Gat uh who uh wrote a book called scary smart anybody read scary smart here in the audience can I highly commend it to you I want to bring him to our stage next year and what Mo has is he says listen we are raising a new species of intelligence these AIS and we’re teaching these AIS by example of how we treat each other right and how we treat our machines and they’re learning from this so I’ve started saying good morning and thank you to Alexa we we um my son is actually here he’s 14 years old and he he and I say please to chat GPT we’re like please chat GPT can you please create a you know so how do you think about how humans should be relating to uh to
[00:11:02] AIS versus as well as how they should relating to us well I think I think we’re at a moment in time where the way we interact with machines is pretty much becoming the way we interact with one another again through conversation through perception hopefully through empathy and so I think it’s really important that we practice this muscle of being empathetic with machines the way we do with each other otherwise we’re just going to lose this muscle so I actually think it’s really important that um we do treat these Technologies with respect um and say please and thank you and because because that’s how we need to and if these if these AIS do become conscious and there’s a debate about whether they will or will not uh they’re going to we’re their parents we are giving birth to them and I’m persuaded by that argument I’m persuaded by that and if that’s the case how do you teach your 3-year-old or 5-year-old or 8-year-old to be be a respectful young
[00:12:01] adult right I think at the end extreme of Technology the more intelligent a system is the more peaceful it is and more empathic it is I think that is where it’s going it’s in the toddler stage that there’s concern I agree I even if we don’t go to the state where technology has Consciousness I think even today right the way we build these Technologies it’s so important that we prioritize that um because this is how we drive behavioral change like people who are more empathetic are better leaders can we change the uh the video from behind us for the cameras okay yeah absolutely there and by the way okay what I’d like to do is add your questions to slido as we’re speaking here and my team will be giving me the most AB voted questions here so please go ahead if you have questions uh for ra on this so we’ve talked a little about empathy what about ethics can we teach uh ethics to AIS will that become part of a foundational model how do you think about ethics who’s having these
[00:13:00] conversations okay I really think we all have to be having these conversations and and um PRI again prioritizing them and being very intentional about it I like to think about ethics and AI in two buckets one is how do we develop these algorithms and then how do we deploy them so on the development side my biggest concern today is around um data and algorithmic bias so in Myspace for example if you train the data on middle-aged white men and then you deployed on a super diverse and Global audience like this one it’s not going to work because it’s never seen examples of people like me or other people in the audience and so that’s an issue um and we have to be very intentional throughout the whole machine learning pipeline that Alex talked about starting from data and then data annotation and then training and validating we have to be thinking about bias at every step of the process um so for example when when uh I was CEO of affectiva my company which I spun out of MIT um at some point
[00:14:00] I had to tie the bonus of my executive team not just to the revenue we’re generating but also to are we really implementing these ethical knobs across the whole engineering and product teams um so I I think we have to like be really serious about it and then the other piece of this is the deployment part because this is very personal data there’s tons of opportunities to make incredible potential positive impact but also to exploit exploit this data yeah yeah so is there Universal ethics or there going to be ethics per User Group Community National footprint uh how do you how do you see that right I mean ethics uh change I mean they’re they’re Universal human ethics but they’re also cultural ethics as well yes and I think we’re already running into that I served on the future Global Council of Robotics and AI for the world economic for Forum it was this
[00:15:00] multi-stakeholder uh group of people from all around the world and I could tell that there are some countries that cared about ethics way more than others right and the way they approach data privacy for example the way you know we approach data privacy in the US versus China for example it’s it’s very different so we’re already seeing and that translates to startups too right some startups really care about this and some startups don’t and um in in our case when we first spun out um my co-founder professor rosaland bicard and myself we sat down around her kitchen table and we said okay so many applications of emotion AI where are we going to draw the line and we decided on a number of core values so consent we don’t do anything where we where we can’t get people’s explicit consent which meant that we had to turn away some business so in 2011 we almost ran out of money but we got approached by the intelligence arm um The Venture arm
[00:16:00] of an intelligence agency and they wanted to fund the company on condition that we focus on surveillance and security and I just don’t think the technology is there and the regulation certainly isn’t so we you know we we turned we turned the funding away we decided to double down on find finding investments from investors that were aligned with our core values and I I think we have to kind of hold that high bar so please yes let’s give it up I want to get a few questions from slido so please enter up vote the questions that you have um for Ronda so uh Ronda right now uh you’ve just started an AI Venture fund as well uh what are you focusing in how big are you growing your fund so it’s a small fund um it’s a preed SL seed stage fund we focus on AI companies I mean I truly believe that the next trillion dollar company has to be AI first and has to be Aid driven and I loved your quote this morning that there’s going to be two types of companies embra
[00:17:01] and that so we’re try to identify these next um either core AI platforms or Technologies or maybe vertical solutions that take AI Technologies say like chat GPT and take it all the way to solve a specific problem for a specific customer or industry um but one area I’m very passionate about like H is the intersection of AI and Health and Longevity okay we we’ll talk about we’ll talk about that yes we’ll have some conversations there at the end of the day what is your biggest concern right now uh in the on the ethical empathic side are people taking this seriously is there enough conversation are people just grabbing for money you know is this is this conversation happening are the tools there I think there’s a realization that we need to take a very humancentric approach to AI but even with chat GPT right we’ve seen several headlines where some version of of this techn techology became very mean it
[00:18:00] became very passive aggressive um and yeah I think we should be worried about that I’m also worried about a broader question you know once this technology has empathy okay so I’ll share an example USC published the study a few years ago where they had PTSD patients divided into two groups some saw a real human therapist and some saw like a digital Avatar like Taran basically and they found that the patients who saw the digital Avatar were more likely to be forthcoming with information um obviously the Avatar was more patient less judgmental and so I think that begs the question you know if we’re going to be more comfortable engaging with these Technologies because they’re Kinder and because they’re more empathetic because they’re available all the time what does that mean about human to Human Relationships so I think about that a lot and by the way there’s an entire generation of digital natives right right son and and and mine uh that are
[00:19:01] growing up thinking that is the norm right yeah hey everybody this is Peter a quick break from the episode you I’m a firm believer that science and technology and how entrepreneurs can change the world is the only real news out there worth consuming I don’t watch the crisis News Network I call CNN or Fox and hear every devastating piece of news on the planet I spend my time training my neural net the way I see the world World by looking at the incredible breakthroughs in science and technology how entrepreneurs are solving the world’s Grand challenges what the breakthroughs are in longevity how exponential Technologies are Transforming Our World so twice a week I put out a Blog one blog is looking at the future of longevity age reversal biotech increasing your health span the other blog looks at exponential Technologies AI 3D printing synthetic biology ol AR VR blockchain these
[00:20:00] Technologies are transforming what you as an entrepreneur can do if this is the kind of news you want to learn about and shape your neural Nets with go to demand.com back/ blog and learn more now back to the episode let’s go here to slido so Andre says what about next Generation that is born with AI speaking of that uh it will not teach AI it’ll be taught by AI any concerns so that’s interesting right so all of a sudden uh AI is having a bigger influence on our kids than we as parents are potentially it’s a great it’s a great question yeah and I think we have to we have to worry about the content but also even the vehicle right so um a few years ago there was a MIT spin out called Jibo it was a social robot yes I remember Jibo did make it but didn’t make it but it was it was a great try so we had one at home and I mean we have Alexa and we have all sorts of stuff at home but we also had a jibbo and Adam who was a lot
[00:21:02] younger that then um it became his friend and so every morning he would talk to Jibo and he would engage with Jibo and then when Jibo ran out of money basically Jibo died and Adam got really upset and it just made me wonder like it made me think right like once we build these emotional connections with with machines um tomorrow we’ll have Paulo here the creator of Moxy right who you know we’ll be speaking about is a you know very successful next generation of sof for robots so we are going to coexist with these robots and these Technologies and we have to not just think about the content but also that connection uh okay Steve Brown is looking for a to displace him Steve is my chief a officer and he’s asking can an AI be your Chief AI officer I’ll ask my current chief a officer if an AI can be and and and so I think I I go back to the conversation with the mod earlier that I don’t think there’s anything that AI can’t take on uh and I think it will
[00:22:01] become your version of Jarvis you’ll have a conversation you’ll ask for advice right you know who out there can do this for us and your AI will tell you it’s this company I’ve already contracted it sent it the data and here the results right that’s going to be interesting but the view I take and I’m I’m curious about yours too I think it’s think I think it’s not AI versus Humans it’s like AI vers it’s it’s humans versus AI plus humans right like the humans who have access to these AI it’s going to be AI versus Humans plus AI exactly right which the the centur model right where we’re seeing that is much more capable I mean one interesting thing going back to her if we each have an AI Avatar that knows us almost better than we know ourselves right because we’re we’re biased towards the way we see things uh we may think we like this but we’re actually subconsciously always choosing this your AI can know what you like all the time and ultimately um I wonder if it’s going to disrupt the advertising business where my AI is just
[00:23:02] buying everything I need for me and you can’t influence my AI you’re not going to show it a commercial of shiny you know new White toothpaste um so that’s going to be interesting it’s going to do some transformation I mean I think it could be a conduit for helping you be a healthier individual a happier individual more connected I keep thinking about like a fridge that has an emotion AI chip and the next time I’m about to binge eat some ice cream or something just like locks down yes um let’s see I’m go to sedak and then Andre’s uh we as humans uh have not figured out ethics and our society reflects the divers uh divisiveness how do we prevent AI ethics to be biased uh on their creater opinions yeah I think that is that is a very good question um because I don’t think we’re aligned on what ethics means there is no universal ethical framework um I am encouraged though there are some
[00:24:01] organizations like the world economic Forum there’s a Consortium called partnership on AI that was started by the tech Giants but also ACLU and Amnesty International where we’re trying to develop these code of ethics but also think about the unintended consequences because technolog is moving so fast by the way is it shocking you how fast it’s moving it’s shocking Yeah it’s you’re in the field I mean it’s exciting but it is also like like holy moment all the time yeah yeah not all the time but but but it but it’s exciting right and I think it’s it’s the right moment to be in this space um I feel like um I feel like I’m surrounded by abundance of opportunities absolutely I I call it drowning in abundance yeah um so Andre asks the world is about power will AI be fighting for monetary territory influence power in the future so that’s an interesting question right the whole idea of can we teach AI to be imp AIC and ethical so that it doesn’t become the
[00:25:02] Terminator but it’s it’s under our control we’re the ones training these algorithms so at the end of the day I feel like AI is just a mirror of society and it’s a mirror of what people who are building these Technologies are and the companies that are building these Technologies and we have to as consumers like all of us we’re all consumers of this technology we have to hold ourselves to a high bar um by the way when you are clicking on an ad that’s jailbait or you know that is what do you call clickbait click bait um you’re teaching okay let’s not go there that’s [Applause] awesome you’re teaching the AI algorithms what you want to see right so don’t click on it that’s so true yeah um Christian can we train and AI to be the ultimate mediator that ultimately
[00:26:01] avoids Mutual assured destruction between ai1 uh and uh versus ai2 or human so I mean the whole idea it was I’m going to show you something tomorrow morning which is a AI bot debate which is fascinating which has some interesting implications can we I mean AIS could be potentially great mediators looking at all the sides helping to elevate things I think I I I don’t know about the like how do we insert ourselves between two AIS kind of debating with each other but I do think if you imagine a world where I have an AI that knows me super well and you have an AI that knows you super well and I give my AI permission to talk to your AI right and it could say well you know you should you know this is what really call those lawyers today right I think that that will create for some interesting interactions right if you give your AI um an opportunity to act on your behalf and make decisions on your behalf
[00:27:00] um I mean I think about that all the time if my kids had AIS that knew them really well and for example it could detect that one of my kids had depression yes should their AI come talk to my Ai and say hey by the way your daughter needs help and who decides that yeah is it my daughter is it my ai’s daughter my daughter’s AI yeah but the ability to have a system that envelops you that helps you um pause when you make when you’re about to make a bad decision that is uh able to if you’re not feeling well change the music change environment make you a better human show you where you’re biased these elements are coming yes absolutely and I’ll take mental health as one example because I think this is a a an amazing opportunity for us to you know today when you walk into the doctor’s office the doctor doesn’t ask you what’s your blood pressure they just measure it but in
[00:28:00] mental health the gold standard is still a survey right on a scale from 1 to 10 how depressed are you and we know that there are facial and vocal and physiological biomarkers of mental health disease and the technology is there we just need to figure out how to scale it but now you have something that is with you all the time that knows your Baseline and when you start deviating from it it can flag that to you it can flag that to a loved one it can bring a doctor in um it can give you advice on what to do and I think that’s really powerful if we can if we have that Health companion with us all the time um I I think that can really be transformative amazing how long you going to be with us you’re here I’m here through the whole show Thursday you’re your son yes awesome let’s give it up for Anna thank [Music] you